N@alia, MEMBER
18, Greece
576 poäng (JäRN)
June 19, 2010 13:04

Atoms - Ions

At school we talk about atoms "loosing" or "gaining" electrons and become ions, either anions or cations. But "how many" atoms do there really exist? I mean, there must be really few compared to the ions, right?
TAGGAR:
orfeas, MEMBER
19, Greece
1668 poäng (SVAVEL)
June 19, 2010 13:33

There are 118 chemical elements till now and each of them can form many ions, so there are more kinds of ions than of atoms.

If you compare the number of atoms and this of ions, you will find out that atoms are REALLY fewer. Why? Because all stars have their matter at the fourth state of matter, plasma, which is "gases" of free electrons and ions. Atoms can be found in great numbers only on planets, comets, dust and gases in space etc. But, almost all mass is gathered in stars, so almost all matter is in the state of plasma, ions.

 		 
 
  
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There are 118 chemical elements till now and each of them can form many ions, so there are more kinds of ions than of atoms.


If you compare the number of atoms and this of ions, you will find out that atoms are REALLY fewer. Why? Because all stars have their matter at the fourth state of matter, plasma, which is "gases" of free electrons and ions. Atoms can be found in great numbers only on planets, comets, dust and gases in space etc. But, almost all mass is gathered in stars, so almost all matter is in the state of plasma, ions.


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orfeas, MEMBER
19, Greece
1668 poäng (SVAVEL)
June 26, 2010 17:13

Hm... it seems that I was wrong. The greatest percentage of the known mass is the intergalactic gas which might be ionized or not.

Morever, a percentage of dark matter might be the matter of brown dwarfs, so we cannot answer the question if we don't find out what is dark matter...

The answer to your question is that we don't know right now.

 		 
 
  
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Hm... it seems that I was wrong. The greatest percentage of the known mass is the intergalactic gas which might be ionized or not. 


Morever, a percentage of dark matter might be the matter of brown dwarfs, so we cannot answer the question if we don't find out what is dark matter...


The answer to your question is that we don't know right now.


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Rocker_in_M, MEMBER
18, Cyprus
752 poäng (NITROGEN)
July 1, 2010 00:28

Brown dwarfs are stable enough , and neutron stars are only consisted of neutrons : neither atoms neither ions and i believe that dark holes should be something similar . So i think we could find the answer by observing the known mass because the unknown probably are in a state much more unstable like black holes which might not be even ions nor atoms . Also, i think they intergalactic gas has more atoms than ions because atoms are more stable and the intergalactic gas doesn't have the extreme temperature of a star.

 		 
 
  
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Brown dwarfs are stable enough , and neutron stars are only consisted of neutrons : neither atoms neither ions and i believe that dark holes should be something similar . So i think we could find the answer by observing the known mass because the unknown probably are in a state much more unstable like black holes which might not be even ions nor atoms .  Also, i think they intergalactic gas has more atoms than ions because atoms are more stable and the intergalactic gas doesn't have the extreme temperature of a star.


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Rocker_in_M, MEMBER
18, Cyprus
752 poäng (NITROGEN)
July 1, 2010 00:30

* when i say brown dwarfs are stable enough I mean that probably they have more atoms than ions

 		 
 
  
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* when i say brown dwarfs are stable enough I mean that probably they have more atoms than ions


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orfeas, MEMBER
19, Greece
1668 poäng (SVAVEL)
July 2, 2010 13:54

The problem is that around the space, except for the intergalactic gas, there are great amounts of free protons, neutrons and electrons.

 		 
 
  
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The problem is that around the space, except for the intergalactic gas, there are great amounts of free protons, neutrons and electrons.


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Rocker_in_M, MEMBER
18, Cyprus
752 poäng (NITROGEN)
July 3, 2010 03:41

no arguing with that but free protons, neutrons and electrons aren't considered neither ions nor atoms ...so they don't count

 		 
 
  
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no arguing with that but free protons, neutrons and electrons aren't considered neither ions nor atoms ...so they don't count


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orfeas, MEMBER
19, Greece
1668 poäng (SVAVEL)
July 3, 2010 07:22

Well, protons can be considered to be ions. It's a matter of definition.

 		 
 
  
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Well, protons can be considered to be ions. It's a matter of definition.


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Rocker_in_M, MEMBER
18, Cyprus
752 poäng (NITROGEN)
July 4, 2010 23:42

Ok we do not consider protons as ions neither electrons ... an ion of hydrogen should at least have a neotron with it , this is my definition

 		 
 
  
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Ok we do not consider protons as ions neither electrons ... an ion of hydrogen should at least have a neotron with it , this is my definition


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Natalia, FORUM MODERATOR
18, Greece
855 poäng (SILICON)
July 5, 2010 20:32

This is your definition, though... We could say that "free" protons are not ions, whereas the protons, that are a result of the removal of an electron, are....But we can't really tell that, can we? So, I guess we could consider ALL (free) protons as ions because they have probably resulted from an initial hydrogen atom...

 		 
 
  
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This is your definition, though... We could say that "free" protons are not ions, whereas the protons, that are a result of the removal of an electron, are....But we can't really tell that, can we? So, I guess we could consider ALL (free) protons as ions because they have probably resulted from an initial hydrogen atom...


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orfeas, MEMBER
19, Greece
1668 poäng (SVAVEL)
July 6, 2010 14:05

No, free protons haven't been produced by an initial hydrogen atom. According to the current cosmological theories, after the Big Bang, quarks formed protons and neutrons, light got free, and AFTER the other elements were formed (mainly hydrogen and helium which are really simple atoms) and then some electrons were attracted by these atoms. But most of the free protons that exist today are free since this period.

I don't disagree with making definitions, but I think we don't have to do so. I think the information we had till now about this topic is enough.

 		 
 
  
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No, free protons haven't been produced by an initial hydrogen atom. According to the current cosmological theories, after the Big Bang, quarks formed protons and neutrons, light got free, and AFTER the other elements were formed (mainly hydrogen and helium which are really simple atoms) and then some electrons were attracted by these atoms. But most of the free protons that exist today are free since this period.


I don't disagree with making definitions, but I think we don't have to do so. I think the information we had till now about this topic is enough.


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